Blackdown: Hey Introspekt, welcome to my blog like it was 2004 all over again! I'm super excited about your album "Moving the Center" and to hear how it came about.
To set the scene let's start at the beginning: can you help me understand where you grew up especially in terms of the culture?
Introspekt: I think one of the important things about where I'm from in terms of how it shaped my music is I think the cultural heritage of the neighborhood I grew up in.
I grew up in Leimert Park in South Central LA. It's seen as the black cultural center of Los Angeles.
I: Very, very different. Very different.
B: You could see those cultural debates going on. Actually, right now it feels like there's a super loud and creative African voice and filtering through. Then London's doing its thing of, "Oh, if you're doing that... now what do we do?"
How did you come across that body of work?
I: That book I was first introduced to Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o's work when I spent a semester at Howard University in Washington, DC, which is a historically black college.
It's got a lot of black people from across the African diaspora and a lot of Caribbean folks. It also just has a political history of pan-Africanist political orientation that's really just very culturally embedded in just how we are.
B: Do you remember the times when awareness of that emerged for you?
B: Do you remember the times when awareness of that emerged for you?
Because as a kid, you've probably just been like, "I'm a kid!" and then, suddenly as you grow, maybe you're like, "actually, I think I might be in the middle of something quite culturally important."
I: I moved there when I was in my early teens, and I think when I moved there I already understood the significance of the area. We would have drum circles in the park every Sunday, and it was just like that kind of community, and also that musical cultural heritage, I think.
I: I moved there when I was in my early teens, and I think when I moved there I already understood the significance of the area. We would have drum circles in the park every Sunday, and it was just like that kind of community, and also that musical cultural heritage, I think.
I was very aware of how it was shaping how I thought about the world, politics, but then also music. I think I was pretty aware of it early on. Definitely, the drum circles every week, I consider that to be my musical upbringing, for sure.
B: Just for clarity, were you playing in them, were you watching them, both?
I: Watching, yes. I was watching. I would just go and just sit down and watch and dance a little bit.
B: I saw Sampha do a drum circle on stage last summer and it strikes me as something probably you need a decent level of skill rather than just go, "can I have a go?" because it's like five, six, seven people in sync.
I: That's why I was like 'I'll just let the drummers do their thing' because I haven't trained but I do want to learn. I do want to learn how to play drums, and that sorts of thing. That would be nice, haha.
B: I think I'm seeing a root value there of: community, rhythm and an awareness of the political position as well or all that together.
B: Just for clarity, were you playing in them, were you watching them, both?
I: Watching, yes. I was watching. I would just go and just sit down and watch and dance a little bit.
B: I saw Sampha do a drum circle on stage last summer and it strikes me as something probably you need a decent level of skill rather than just go, "can I have a go?" because it's like five, six, seven people in sync.
I: That's why I was like 'I'll just let the drummers do their thing' because I haven't trained but I do want to learn. I do want to learn how to play drums, and that sorts of thing. That would be nice, haha.
B: I think I'm seeing a root value there of: community, rhythm and an awareness of the political position as well or all that together.
B: Can you think of any other examples of things you were part of at that time that your work draws on, people or styles?
I: Oftentimes with the drum circles, there were parking lots around the park where Rastas would set up their sound systems and just be playing dub music.
I: Oftentimes with the drum circles, there were parking lots around the park where Rastas would set up their sound systems and just be playing dub music.
That was my introduction to sound system culture as well, which I think, obviously, has shaped so much of my work. I wasn't super involved in a direct participatory sense, but more just in terms of just existing in those spaces and soaking in those influences. I think that's where it all starts.
Then, I'm trying to think, maybe around 2014, 2013. I started getting involved with the local dubstep scene. I started frequenting a record shop that a friend of mine owned called Touch Vinyl. They would have an open deck night. That's where I learned how to spin records and how to DJ.
From there I just really got a taste for a lot of the UK dubstep records, a lot of the Digital Mystikz, and D1 and just a lot of that end of the dubstep spectrum. Also, I really got into grime as well around that time.
I was spinning a lot of that stuff and started playing in clubs around the time I was 16 or so. My first gig was opening for Joe Nice. I got kicked out of the club immediately after my set for being underage.
B: Joe Nice was one of the very first people that played my music.
I: Oh, wow.
B: I think Joe Nice was the first person to cut a dubplate of our music; he was really foundationally supportive, so that's a beautiful connection.
B: Joe Nice was one of the very first people that played my music.
I: Oh, wow.
B: I think Joe Nice was the first person to cut a dubplate of our music; he was really foundationally supportive, so that's a beautiful connection.
For completeness I think N:Type was the first to play a track of mine at FWD>>, Kode9 the first on Rinse and Joe was the first to cut one to dubplate. I'll always be grateful for that.
I: Same for me. He was definitely the first person to cut a dubplate of mine. My first track that saw a vinyl release was on his label. This was 10 years ago. He was definitely very foundationally supportive. I tell people I went to the Joe Nice School of dubstep and bass.
I: That's definitely a big formative influence for me.
B: Was that as Introspect, that track on Joe Nice's label?
I: Yes.
B: Very cool. I also think it's interesting that you discovered more the Mystikz, D1 type side of things because by 2014… I mean my experience of LA dubstep was very noisy.
I: Same for me. He was definitely the first person to cut a dubplate of mine. My first track that saw a vinyl release was on his label. This was 10 years ago. He was definitely very foundationally supportive. I tell people I went to the Joe Nice School of dubstep and bass.
I: That's definitely a big formative influence for me.
B: Was that as Introspect, that track on Joe Nice's label?
I: Yes.
B: Very cool. I also think it's interesting that you discovered more the Mystikz, D1 type side of things because by 2014… I mean my experience of LA dubstep was very noisy.
Dusk and I played there in 2010. We met 12th Planet. He was kinda laughing at us for referencing garage as an influence. We were like, "Yeah so... this LA dubstep stuff is going a whole different way."
I: Very, very different. Very different.
I was always an outlier in that scene a little bit because I was playing a lot of the more, I guess, stripped back stuff, but then also a lot of grime as well, and a bit of dark garage in my sets.
I always felt slightly out of place in the LA dubstep scene, but still very formative for sure, just in terms of having a community of people and getting opportunities to play at these gigs on these sound systems.
The sound at the time was very, very different than what I was more interested in. Everyone was doing, at least the crew that I was a part of, was doing, what they were calling, dungeon dubstep at the time.
It was more minimal, but definitely there was a certain kind of sound to it that was pretty different than what I was interested in, but I did like the minimalism a bit. It definitely was influential. haha
B: My memory of the dungeon stuff was probably that's the Youngsta's style stripped back & dubby, which is great. It just is very, very focused around one particular vibe, almost iterating on the same sound.
I: For sure. I definitely agree with that. It was a time for that music haha. There was a lot of the Innamind stuff and what else was happening around the time. I think Innamind was probably the most popular label in that sphere. A lot of the System and Deep Medi stuff was also very popular in the circles that I was in.
B: What's interesting is your musical career & choices, your art has somewhat taken references from that, but now diverges to its own kind of space.
B: My memory of the dungeon stuff was probably that's the Youngsta's style stripped back & dubby, which is great. It just is very, very focused around one particular vibe, almost iterating on the same sound.
I: For sure. I definitely agree with that. It was a time for that music haha. There was a lot of the Innamind stuff and what else was happening around the time. I think Innamind was probably the most popular label in that sphere. A lot of the System and Deep Medi stuff was also very popular in the circles that I was in.
B: What's interesting is your musical career & choices, your art has somewhat taken references from that, but now diverges to its own kind of space.
You're playing to different crowds, eg in queer clubs. Can you talk about how that happened and how you feel that's going?
I: Part of it, I think, has to do with, again, just a lot of the music that I would hear growing up and just the subconscious influences that I really started to explore until maybe a couple of years ago.
I: Part of it, I think, has to do with, again, just a lot of the music that I would hear growing up and just the subconscious influences that I really started to explore until maybe a couple of years ago.
I took a long break from music after about 2016, 2017. I took a break from it for about five years.
I wasn't really going to clubs. I wasn't really putting out any music. I was making music just for fun, but I didn't get back into it in a more professional capacity until I think four years ago, after the pandemic, around 2021-22.
Around that time I was more going to raves and parties in the queer scene. I think the first rave I went to after pandemic times, or lockdown times, was Eris Drew, Octo Octa, and the Bored Lord.
That was a pretty influential one for me. This was where I met them and started working with them. It was actually the first time I had heard UK garage played at a club in LA by someone, not myself, haha.
B: I'm curious about the musical context here. I'm a little familiar with some of the stuff that Eris Drew plays but I don't know there's a huge overlap with bassy music and certainly with what mainstream US dubstep is.
Can you describe to me what you were hearing in those initial sets?
I: Yes. I think the connection between that crowd and the way that they've influenced my music was not quite as much sonically.
I: Yes. I think the connection between that crowd and the way that they've influenced my music was not quite as much sonically.
For a while, I was definitely doing the more house-adjacent garage thing but I've definitely moved a little bit closer to my dubstep-based roots in recent years. I think the real influence from Eris Drew, Octo Octa, and the Bored Lord was really philosophically.
There's this idea of spirituality in their music and I found that really powerful. This idea of, for lack of a better term, I guess, a sort of divine feminine presence shining throughout the music.
Eris Drew talks a lot about the Motherbeat, and that sort of thing. That's definitely really shaped my music in terms of trying to put that energy at the forefront of it as opposed to what I feel is some masculinist approach to the big baselines and that sort of thing.
Even though my music can be quite energetic and, I guess, hard in some senses, I always try to keep it a bit sensual and connected to that feminine spiritual energy.
B: Yes, totally. The most obvious musical element is just groove, right?
I: Definitely.
B: A lot of dubstep lost its real groove in a trade-off against impact.
I: Yes, for sure.
B: Dusk and I went through an existential crisis in about 2004 when halfstep came into FWD>>. We're like, "do we even want to be here?" after the snare started moving to the half-step thing."
B: Yes, totally. The most obvious musical element is just groove, right?
I: Definitely.
B: A lot of dubstep lost its real groove in a trade-off against impact.
I: Yes, for sure.
B: Dusk and I went through an existential crisis in about 2004 when halfstep came into FWD>>. We're like, "do we even want to be here?" after the snare started moving to the half-step thing."
When you're thinking about that influence from Eris Drew and you say the Motherbeat, and so on, what are the practical ways you feel are coming through? Is it the selection? Is it the sounds in the tracks that you're playing, as well as making? Is it track references? Is it artwork? How does that express yourself?
I: Definitely, track references and samples and stuff. I remember Eris, she did a mixed tape called, I think it was "Raving Disco Breaks".
I: Definitely, track references and samples and stuff. I remember Eris, she did a mixed tape called, I think it was "Raving Disco Breaks".
The way she talked about it and the idea behind it was using fragments to create something that's stylistically new.
That's a huge approach, especially in my recent productions with just sampling a lot of this old early dubstep, dark garage stuff that kind of recontextualizing it or putting it in an altogether new context.
That's a big part of my approach that I definitely think was influenced by Eris and Octo Octa and Bored Lord.
I also got really into the queer soulful side of dance music with the music that was coming out of the Paradise Garage in the '90s out of the ballroom scenes, and that sort of thing.
There's a lot of reference to that and my music with the samples. I sample a lot of Masters at Work, and that kind of stuff. I think that's the main connection there. Obviously, very sonically different in a lot of ways, but, I think, rooted in very similar philosophies with respect to that and with respect to queer identity.
B: I think as well, when you're keeping that groove from the early, like the 134bpm type more swung stuff, you can easily go into what you describe as Ballroom or Jersey. I know you do that.
B: I think as well, when you're keeping that groove from the early, like the 134bpm type more swung stuff, you can easily go into what you describe as Ballroom or Jersey. I know you do that.
As an artist, I'm just thinking about this in very practical term as a DJ: If you were in that pocket of lower 130 bpms, you can more easily mix these styles in, whether it's Ballroom or other queer genres, and so on, rather than being stuck being further up there above 140bpm.
I: Exactly. That's what I really like about the 2-step stuff. I feel like it mixes really well with a lot of the Baltimore Club, Baltimore breaks DJ Technics type stuff, as well as the garage, house, New York, New Jersey vibe as well.
B: How active are those scenes at the moment?
I: Exactly. That's what I really like about the 2-step stuff. I feel like it mixes really well with a lot of the Baltimore Club, Baltimore breaks DJ Technics type stuff, as well as the garage, house, New York, New Jersey vibe as well.
B: How active are those scenes at the moment?
Are those things that you're playing records, particularly Baltimore stuff, is it that you are picking classic records and bringing into your sets now or is it current producers that you are interested in?
I: A little bit of both. I tend to lean a little bit heavier on the classic stuff. I've been playing a lot of old DJ Technics, and Booman, and Diamond K, that kind of stuff.
I: A little bit of both. I tend to lean a little bit heavier on the classic stuff. I've been playing a lot of old DJ Technics, and Booman, and Diamond K, that kind of stuff.
I haven't been playing as much Vogue Beats & Ballroom, kind of stuff, just because I feel like that's a very specific insular community and I'm not quite as directly involved with it.
I've been moving away from that, especially as my music has gotten more attention because I just don't want to blow up the spot so to speak with that.
B: And you don't feel that about Jersey for example?
I: Not quite as much. I think those scenes…. well, Jersey, I don't know, I'm not quite as familiar with the Jersey scene, to be honest.
B: And you don't feel that about Jersey for example?
I: Not quite as much. I think those scenes…. well, Jersey, I don't know, I'm not quite as familiar with the Jersey scene, to be honest.
But with Baltimore, I know historically there was an interesting cross Atlantic dialogue between the Baltimore breaks stuff and the breakbeat hardcore stuff that was happening in the UK.
I've seen that cross-pollination as well even into the 2-step stuff. A lot of Chris Max stuff, I feel like references rhythmically, this sort of Baltimore Club balance, some of Steve Gurley's stuff as well.
I think there's some similarities there.
I'm mostly interested in that era, but I've definitely been really getting into current Baltimore producers like JiaLing and Kade Young, those artists. I think they're making really interesting stuff right now.
B: Then it feels to me like you're blending a bunch of different styles and then taking it into clubs that maybe historically, or more recently, haven't been covering it. Is that fair?
B: Then it feels to me like you're blending a bunch of different styles and then taking it into clubs that maybe historically, or more recently, haven't been covering it. Is that fair?
Are there other people doing that bassy side of things, but taking into queer clubs that have been an inspiration?
I: Definitely. Definitely. I feel like it's a really interesting time right now for this interest in the bassier side of things and queer scenes.
I: Definitely. Definitely. I feel like it's a really interesting time right now for this interest in the bassier side of things and queer scenes.
There's a lot of folks who are pushing that stuff, like Sister Zo and this girl Trussie, I know from LA, and who else is doing that stuff. There's a bunch of girls in like Philly Yes, I feel like it's a pretty interesting time for that right now.
B: Sister Zo has always had just unreal drums, I've just been a fan for ages of the percussion. I was like just drawn to it. We played a bunch of them on Rinse, I was just like 'this!' I mean, talk about 'drum circles' haha…
I: Yes. ... totally, she's got it. She's got the sauce for sure. Also, Bored Lord. She's always dipped into the more bassy stuff, but more from a breakbeat hardcore perspective.
B: Sister Zo has always had just unreal drums, I've just been a fan for ages of the percussion. I was like just drawn to it. We played a bunch of them on Rinse, I was just like 'this!' I mean, talk about 'drum circles' haha…
I: Yes. ... totally, she's got it. She's got the sauce for sure. Also, Bored Lord. She's always dipped into the more bassy stuff, but more from a breakbeat hardcore perspective.
ADAB I think they're in Philly. I know they play a lot of stuff like that. And Kiernan Laveaux, CCL.
I feel like it's a really interesting time for that kind of, yes, just that kind of recontextualizing of that sort of music.
B: Yes! I've been listening to lots of CCL sets recently. So good.
B: Yes! I've been listening to lots of CCL sets recently. So good.
So what are the different ways we can see recontextualizing happening? Is it playing music to different crowds? Is it like different communities embracing it?
I: Yes, when I think of recontextualizing, I'm thinking like: playing these tracks to different crowds who wouldn't have necessarily encountered it when it was newer, or whatever.
I: Yes, when I think of recontextualizing, I'm thinking like: playing these tracks to different crowds who wouldn't have necessarily encountered it when it was newer, or whatever.
I think also in terms of the newer productions that are being put out, I think a lot of the intention behind it is a little bit different, like in terms of the intended impact, the intended sort of effect that we want it to have on the dancers on the dance floor is pretty different.
I think oftentimes with dubstep, historically, I feel like the goal often was to get the gun fingers and to get the wheel up; at least in the more popular strands of dubstep.
I feel like oftentimes now with some of the newer cohort of people making stuff inspired by that history, I think there's more of an influence or, I guess… more of an intention around, like a psychedelic journey around it, or like the sensuality of it, the physicality of the bass and how that makes you feel.
At least that's how I think about it. I really think about just that physicality and the materiality of that bass weight as sort of a sensual kind of force.
B: Yes, a lot of bass weight in a lot of the early tipping point dubstep scenes... I know you're not using these words, but also I wonder if you're thinking also about quite a lot about "groove" rather than like "gun fingers", which is an awful lot about stopping and building towards this overwhelming moment where then you stop, right?
I: Yes.
B: Which is the classic rewind of course, comes from black culture.
I: Yes. I definitely love a wheel up. I love a wheel up moment but, no, I think also a part of it is a lot of us… the mixing style I think is a little bit different.
B: Yes, a lot of bass weight in a lot of the early tipping point dubstep scenes... I know you're not using these words, but also I wonder if you're thinking also about quite a lot about "groove" rather than like "gun fingers", which is an awful lot about stopping and building towards this overwhelming moment where then you stop, right?
I: Yes.
B: Which is the classic rewind of course, comes from black culture.
I: Yes. I definitely love a wheel up. I love a wheel up moment but, no, I think also a part of it is a lot of us… the mixing style I think is a little bit different.
A lot of the current people that I've been, a lot of my peers and for me for sure, I think I tend to mix in a way that's more similar to how house music DJs mix or like, at times club music DJs as well.
More of an emphasis on this sort of continual movement, as opposed to these moments of stopping. I think it's a balance also because… yes, it's a balance but I definitely think there's more of, like you said, that influence or the intention behind keeping that groove, for sure.
B: Yes, it's a blend, longer blend and, yes, keeping it going. I also think, just from a distance, just a lot of the ways you're presenting things is much more sexual.
I: Yes, evidently, haha.
B: Wonderfully, unapologetically, sexual! I don't think that was really a big part of dubstep early on, which was pretty straight and pretty masculine.
I: Definitely.
B: And it got more macho or brosteppy to the point where it was fucking obnoxious. You can debate whether that was sexual or not haha but I think you take it a different angle.
B: Yes, it's a blend, longer blend and, yes, keeping it going. I also think, just from a distance, just a lot of the ways you're presenting things is much more sexual.
I: Yes, evidently, haha.
B: Wonderfully, unapologetically, sexual! I don't think that was really a big part of dubstep early on, which was pretty straight and pretty masculine.
I: Definitely.
B: And it got more macho or brosteppy to the point where it was fucking obnoxious. You can debate whether that was sexual or not haha but I think you take it a different angle.
How do you think about how you're presenting your work?
It looks really fun and really positive, the way you're describing it, presenting it sometimes, but - and I don't mean this as criticism of the early years - it's objectively stylistically different from where the dubstep boys started out haha...
I: Yes. I think, definitely, I would challenge that a little bit because I think there is a sexual kind of politics to that early dubstep stuff. It's just that it was a different kind of sexuality that was being presented with the music.
I: Yes. I think, definitely, I would challenge that a little bit because I think there is a sexual kind of politics to that early dubstep stuff. It's just that it was a different kind of sexuality that was being presented with the music.
Maybe it's definitely not as explicitly sexual. I think my music is a lot more explicit in that sort of as what I feel like is a corrective to a more masculine, libidinal, sexual politics with the music.
I think of like the big drop kind of dubstep as mirroring a sexual approach that is really focused on climaxes, as opposed to the sensuality that I'm trying to push with my music.
A lot of my music is about like anticipation and the push and pull of that. Yes, like building tension, as opposed to these big moments.
B: Yes. I agree. As you say, sometimes you do it and sometimes there's wheel ups, but generally it's like that. Yes. An amazing groove, building it. I agree.
B: Yes. I agree. As you say, sometimes you do it and sometimes there's wheel ups, but generally it's like that. Yes. An amazing groove, building it. I agree.
Then that makes a lot of sense when you're talking about Baltimore, you're talking about the Paradise Garage or like, DJing a little bit like a house DJ where you're trying to pull people through something rather than up, down, up, down, up, down... I think that makes a lot of sense. And, I like the idea of it being corrective, haha.
I: Yes. Yes. I think it's not fully corrective because I do think I pull a lot of influence from the early, early dubstep garage stuff, a lot of Benny Ill stuff, like the samples and a lot of feminine vocals.
I: Yes. Yes. I think it's not fully corrective because I do think I pull a lot of influence from the early, early dubstep garage stuff, a lot of Benny Ill stuff, like the samples and a lot of feminine vocals.
I think a lot about that track "Poison" from the Benny Ill & Hatcha EP. That track, it's basically like, it's got a Baltimore club sort of pattern to it, but the dubbiness and then it's got the moaning samples.
I think that track is definitely one of the blueprints for my current sound, I think, haha.
B: Yes. Anyone who finds that track foundational, I will connect with them on some level. "Gorgon Sound" was the one that changed my life, but only because I think I found it first. Then I went digging to the first Tempa 12" and the Turn U On releases. Yes, that stuff's just unreal.
I: Yes, it's so good, haha.
B: I don't have the right vocabulary for a lot of this, but I think what I'm relating to what you're saying is around drop v groove is, when stuff is swung and groove-led and funky, it's about body movement, and it is about, like you say, a form of sensuality, and also maybe just collective community, moving together, rather than, "losing it" as an individual?
I: Yes, for sure. For sure. I think the community aspect is a big part of it, definitely. It is also a little bit personal.
B: Yes. Anyone who finds that track foundational, I will connect with them on some level. "Gorgon Sound" was the one that changed my life, but only because I think I found it first. Then I went digging to the first Tempa 12" and the Turn U On releases. Yes, that stuff's just unreal.
I: Yes, it's so good, haha.
B: I don't have the right vocabulary for a lot of this, but I think what I'm relating to what you're saying is around drop v groove is, when stuff is swung and groove-led and funky, it's about body movement, and it is about, like you say, a form of sensuality, and also maybe just collective community, moving together, rather than, "losing it" as an individual?
I: Yes, for sure. For sure. I think the community aspect is a big part of it, definitely. It is also a little bit personal.
My artist name, Introspekt, it's very interior. I think that's a really good point. That's a really good point. I think there is something about it that's very community-driven and oriented.
B: What brought you back after those years when you weren't either releasing or putting stuff out? What was the sort of switch of, "hey, I actually want to either release or be more public or lean into this more? What were the emotional drivers for that?
I: I think a big factor was the resurgence of this sort of dark 2-step sound at the time.
B: What brought you back after those years when you weren't either releasing or putting stuff out? What was the sort of switch of, "hey, I actually want to either release or be more public or lean into this more? What were the emotional drivers for that?
I: I think a big factor was the resurgence of this sort of dark 2-step sound at the time.
I think the label Time Is Now had just started, and people like Soul Mass Transit System, Interplanetary Criminal, Holloway, and Sully were making this really darker, more stripped back sort of 2-step sound. That was really inspiring for me.
That's what made me start sending my stuff to those labels and ended up releasing with them. I think that scene has moved in a direction that's definitely diverged a bit. At the time, around that time period of 2019 to 2021, that was a big influencing factor that got me back into directly participating in this sort of dance music stuff.
It felt like there was an interest in the sound that I had been interested in, but felt like wasn't really connecting with people. Because there was this resurgence, I felt able to connect with other people over it.
B: One of the real roots, very obviously of dubstep is the Paradise Garage, right? Being a gay club. That strand got lost as it got over into the UK, and the UK garage stuff was the London black community and Sunday Scene, but it wasn't explicitly a gay club or a gay sound. I love the idea that what you're doing is going back and finding a new audience, now.
I: Yes. I definitely think, also, I think the other important aspect of it has less to do with the queerness of it, which I think is important for sure. The Paradise Garage was a gay club, but also it was very much a black and brown gay club.
B: One of the real roots, very obviously of dubstep is the Paradise Garage, right? Being a gay club. That strand got lost as it got over into the UK, and the UK garage stuff was the London black community and Sunday Scene, but it wasn't explicitly a gay club or a gay sound. I love the idea that what you're doing is going back and finding a new audience, now.
I: Yes. I definitely think, also, I think the other important aspect of it has less to do with the queerness of it, which I think is important for sure. The Paradise Garage was a gay club, but also it was very much a black and brown gay club.
The sorts of rhythms that were really popular in the music there were taken a lot from Afro-Latin musical heritage, like the tribal house stuff that was happening. I think there's also a connection there with this sort of diasporic blackness in terms of the rhythms, the rhythmic ideas that are being injected into that sort of music.
B: Yes, 100%. Though oddly, a lot of that house world, they can be very snobby towards quite bassy music, even if it's a little bit bassy.
B: Yes, 100%. Though oddly, a lot of that house world, they can be very snobby towards quite bassy music, even if it's a little bit bassy.
They're like, "if it's bassy, it's not sophisticated enough." I'm like, "so what you're telling me is this amazing black music is not sophisticated?" It never sits well with me.
They're like, "oh, we're doing our house thing. It's all beautiful. And what you're doing over there is not." I'm like, "I don't know... I think it's pretty amazing."
I: Yes, I know. Totally. That's always how I felt. I've always felt like there was definitely a connection between the sort of dubstep that I was interested in and the sort of house and techno sort of stuff that I'm also interested in.
I: Yes, I know. Totally. That's always how I felt. I've always felt like there was definitely a connection between the sort of dubstep that I was interested in and the sort of house and techno sort of stuff that I'm also interested in.
I think that connection has a lot to do with what the Afrofuturists talk about.
B: Can you tell me what Afrofuturism means to you?
I: At a most basic level, it's the idea of imagining black futures through art.
I: At a most basic level, it's the idea of imagining black futures through art.
Musically, I think this plays out in the way of, for me, taking these rhythms that really go back to traditional African music and using those rhythms in a new sonic context. Similar to what Drexciya and that sort of Detroit techno was doing with that.
Just imagining a future where blackness and our life worlds have a presence, as opposed to a future where that doesn't exist. I think that's a big part of it, a big theme.
In my music also, I think a lot about alternative timelines.
A lot of it is about reimagining the past and also creating a different trajectory or future. That's a big part of my approach and the way that I interpret Afrofuturism into my music.
B: One of the things I think is tricky, as an artist who specializes in audio, is the practical ways that you tell these stories.
B: One of the things I think is tricky, as an artist who specializes in audio, is the practical ways that you tell these stories.
I've noticed over the years that one of the things many ways electronic musicians have struggled, is I often think they have way more broad ideas than is immediately obvious from their music.
Not that all art should be immediately obvious, but I know for a fact a lot of music stories go untold. I'll give you a practical example.
Mala said to me a long, long time ago, maybe twenty ish years ago, that the track name "B" had a very specific meaning. From memory, it was inspired by a situation around him and he was guiding someone to: "just be."
I think he was making a layered point about the fact that someone around him was not really being who they truly are. He was urging them to center on who they actually are.
Now, to my knowledge, he's never been asked about it and so said this in public. There's a little fragment of something that's actually a pretty, pretty cool story or an artistic message that goes with it, that would widen how people think about that track.
So this is a rambling way of saying, what are the practical ways that you can express Afrofuturism narratives in your work so that folks can understand it?
I: I think it's tough because I think of my music… there's an abstract quality to it in the sense that I don't think I approach Afrofuturism in a more semiotic or symbolic way, or a way that's more symbolically obvious.
I: I think it's tough because I think of my music… there's an abstract quality to it in the sense that I don't think I approach Afrofuturism in a more semiotic or symbolic way, or a way that's more symbolically obvious.
I think a big part of it has to do with what Kode9 talks about a little bit in his books of somatic rewiring by ways of these certain rhythms and the ways that these rhythms affect us on a physiological level.
That's been a big thing I've been thinking about is: 'what do these rhythms do to us on a level that's not fully conscious?' I don't know, maybe that's just inconsequential to anything, but that's how I think about it is almost like a sub-political statement, as opposed to something that's more explicitly political.
B: Yes, totally. In very simple terms, I feel like a lot of very swung rhythms that have come out of the different strands of black music are so great for making people dance and hence together.
I: Yes, totally.
B: It's a spectacularly simple thing to be saying: when we're together and moving together, we're... together, rather than divided.
I: Also, I think that part of togetherness is important.
B: Yes, totally. In very simple terms, I feel like a lot of very swung rhythms that have come out of the different strands of black music are so great for making people dance and hence together.
I: Yes, totally.
B: It's a spectacularly simple thing to be saying: when we're together and moving together, we're... together, rather than divided.
I: Also, I think that part of togetherness is important.
Also, I think there's something about the polyrhythmic nature of it. The ways that we can all be dancing together, but oftentimes, we're dancing to different rhythms in the same song, which is interesting, too, because there's just this narrative about the nature of how we experience reality.
It's like we experience it together, but we also experience it in these very unique ways. I think that's an important thought that I've been having with regards to my music and how I want people to experience it.
B: How are you looking at your album as a body of work?
I: With the album, the main idea behind it, the title is Moving the Centre, which is a reference to a collection of speeches and essays from the Kenyan author Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o.
B: How are you looking at your album as a body of work?
I: With the album, the main idea behind it, the title is Moving the Centre, which is a reference to a collection of speeches and essays from the Kenyan author Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o.
His book, Moving the Centre: the Search for Cultural Freedoms, is a reference to that.
It's all about this idea of presenting an alternate perspective, as opposed to that which is more dominant in dance music and in dubstep and bass music.
Also, what I'm trying to do is present a narrative of this music that is rather than locating things in terms of a central origin point, trying to think about the more polycentric nature of where all these influences are pulling from, because obviously, dubstep… South London, that's the point of its genesis.
There's a lot of focus on that.
What I've also been thinking through while making the album is what are the specific demographics that were present in South London and in that context, and the different demographic shifts that have taken place in the UK and across different countries from the Caribbean and West Africa?
Out of those, the movement of people across space, how did that influence the sound?
B: There is a paradox you are making me think of: as you're referencing early Croydon and South London, Croydon, Norwood etc and these places but actually, they were pulling in sounds from all over the planet.
I: Exactly.
B: Horsepower's debut album "In Fine Style", to me, is almost like an atlas.
I: Yes. That's exactly it. I think, yes, really trying to center that polycentric, global orientation of the music.
B: There is a paradox you are making me think of: as you're referencing early Croydon and South London, Croydon, Norwood etc and these places but actually, they were pulling in sounds from all over the planet.
I: Exactly.
B: Horsepower's debut album "In Fine Style", to me, is almost like an atlas.
I: Yes. That's exactly it. I think, yes, really trying to center that polycentric, global orientation of the music.
For me, specifically, focusing on the influence of the African diaspora to the Caribbean and also with continental Africans. That's a huge touching point for what the album is all about, I think.
B: I think it's very timely. It's a different musical angle but with amapiano and afro house bubbling in London, it feels like there's a very powerful voice from Africa in the dialogue at the moment.
B: I think it's very timely. It's a different musical angle but with amapiano and afro house bubbling in London, it feels like there's a very powerful voice from Africa in the dialogue at the moment.
And not to say there wasn't always African music being played, but in the London stuff being made, from my outsider viewpoint, felt like Jamaica and America maybe played the loudest voice, right?
I: Yes, for sure.
I: Yes, for sure.
B: You could see those cultural debates going on. Actually, right now it feels like there's a super loud and creative African voice and filtering through. Then London's doing its thing of, "Oh, if you're doing that... now what do we do?"
How did you come across that body of work?
I: That book I was first introduced to Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o's work when I spent a semester at Howard University in Washington, DC, which is a historically black college.
At the time, I was studying Africana Studies, and a lot of my professors used Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o to frame a lot of their work in terms of thinking about taking literature outside of a Western literature context and returning to a tradition of African storytelling and the epistemologies that are present in those cultures.
This might be a little bit tangential, but the other idea that I think was working through in the creation of the album, and definitely, I don't think this was as conscious while I was creating the album, but I've come to realize that now… in those early sorts of years of dubstep, I feel like you can hear dubstep escaping from UK garage in a sense of, I think it was a reaction to just some of the class politics of the more 'champagne bottle service' kind of UK garage stuff.
B: It really was.
I: That's also a big part of my album is it's a big sonic shift from a lot of the stuff I was doing before and a lot of the scenes that I think I was more adjacent to with the UK garage stuff.
B: It really was.
I: That's also a big part of my album is it's a big sonic shift from a lot of the stuff I was doing before and a lot of the scenes that I think I was more adjacent to with the UK garage stuff.
I feel like the direction the UK garage scene has gone in the past two years is very different than what I'm trying to do with my music. I think you can hear that also in the album of escaping that prism or that UK garage framework.
B: While I love and will always love UK garage and I'm happy a new generation have embraced it, I'm a little skeptical about the current new garage stuff, culturally, and musically very skeptical.
B: While I love and will always love UK garage and I'm happy a new generation have embraced it, I'm a little skeptical about the current new garage stuff, culturally, and musically very skeptical.
I watched the end of garage happen. I went to Twice as Nice a bit at the end. Culturally, it's not the same people. It doesn't look very black to me.
I: No, not at all.
B: It doesn't seem to be rooted in the black community, and garage is black music.
I: Exactly.
B: But yet when I bike around London there are still billboards for the OG garage brands - which seems to be an entirely different scene.
I: No, not at all.
B: It doesn't seem to be rooted in the black community, and garage is black music.
I: Exactly.
B: But yet when I bike around London there are still billboards for the OG garage brands - which seems to be an entirely different scene.
With afrohouse/tribal/amapiano nights like HouSupa and Awoken and when Dusk or Emma Warren and I go, we wallflower, we are guests. It is a black scene, there's mad creativity going on but trust me they're not playing UK garage.
I: No, exactly. That's what I've come to feel about the garage scene right now.
I: No, exactly. That's what I've come to feel about the garage scene right now.
When I go to the UK and I play these garage parties, it's just all these white faces. A bunch of lads, lots of university student kind of… It's like university student music a little bit, and that's not at all what I'm trying to do.
When I just look out at these crowds and I just don't see anyone who looks like me, or even when I do see people in the dance floor who look like me, I see a discomfort on their face sometimes.
It's sad that, for a while, I felt like I was playing in these shows, or these venues, or these nights, where it was just if a black woman or a black trans woman like me were in the space as a dancer, she probably wouldn't feel safe or comfortable.
That made me realize the need for a big shift in terms of what I'm aligning with in terms of the scene, in terms of other artists, and what kinds of audiences I'm trying to connect with.
B: I think you nailed what I find a little bit unexciting about the current new wave garage. And look: obviously I'm white, middle-class, and university-educated, so it's culturally me, but it doesn't excite me or bring me joy, as I can't see how the form is evolving or being contributed to, though I'm happy they're having fun.
I: Exactly. I've been holding my tongue on it, too, because I have a lot of friends in that scene. I don't want to seem like I'm poo-pooing what they're doing. There's just those aspects of it where I feel like it doesn't exactly align with my values or my goals as an artist.
B: I think you nailed what I find a little bit unexciting about the current new wave garage. And look: obviously I'm white, middle-class, and university-educated, so it's culturally me, but it doesn't excite me or bring me joy, as I can't see how the form is evolving or being contributed to, though I'm happy they're having fun.
I: Exactly. I've been holding my tongue on it, too, because I have a lot of friends in that scene. I don't want to seem like I'm poo-pooing what they're doing. There's just those aspects of it where I feel like it doesn't exactly align with my values or my goals as an artist.
There's a parallel there with the direction my music is going and the direction the early dubstep scene was taking away from the garage stuff.
B: Yes, which I'd rather listen to garage than terrible rock or even just the brostep side of things. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to involve any of the black originators or current very many members of the black community who actually make garage. Nor much fundamental evolution of the musical form.
I: Exactly.
B: Do better.
I: Right.
B: Are there other themes in your album you want to pull out, areas you want to convey?
I: I think my album is also a narrative about time, about temporality. I think oftentimes we think about time and history as a linear progressive current.
B: Yes, which I'd rather listen to garage than terrible rock or even just the brostep side of things. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to involve any of the black originators or current very many members of the black community who actually make garage. Nor much fundamental evolution of the musical form.
I: Exactly.
B: Do better.
I: Right.
B: Are there other themes in your album you want to pull out, areas you want to convey?
I: I think my album is also a narrative about time, about temporality. I think oftentimes we think about time and history as a linear progressive current.
Whereas in my music and taking from a lot of West African cosmological ideas about time, I think there's this idea of time as a spiral and as open-ended.
I think that's behind the impulses towards the ways that I use samples and things like that.
I want my music to sound as though you can't exactly locate it in a certain time period necessarily. It doesn't really sound like much of the music that people are making right now.
It vaguely sounds like the stuff that was being made around 2002-2004, but not exactly. It sounds a bit futurist, but also, it has that nostalgic element to it.
I think there's definitely this nonlinear temporality that's present in the music as well, which is definitely a reference to indigenous African and also indigenous North American ideas of time and the rhythm of the universe, kind of…I don't know how to fully talk about that without sounding too abstract.
B: Something you're making me think about, I don't know if it's in your work, but as stuff gets really swung, if you think of a bar, the stuff I love sometimes is like the little hits at the end of the bar can loop to the beginning.
B: Something you're making me think about, I don't know if it's in your work, but as stuff gets really swung, if you think of a bar, the stuff I love sometimes is like the little hits at the end of the bar can loop to the beginning.
Then the last note of one bar can actually be rhythmically part of the next one. As that stuff gets really swung but you're not really saying it's super stiff if everything lines up, it's more like the little hits here bounce you there into a spiral.
Then that's also why it works really well with body movement because you're properly moving in the way that our bodies aren't perfectly symmetrical and the ups and downs aren't perfectly distanced.
I: That's a really good point. Definitely, it's very present in those rhythms. It's not quantized perfectly. It's very nonlinear.
B: You need the imperfections a little bit of, the timing is slightly off. It's some swung this way or swung that way or pitched up or pitched down.
Okay, great. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. There's lots of music that I feel as if we've lived through together, particularly musically. There's loads of stuff that you're thinking about that's totally new to me. I'm just like, "it's absolutely amazing hearing about it."
I: Thank you so much for making the time. I've always appreciated your words. I remember being in high school, reading your blog. I feel like it's really fitting that you're writing the biography for the album.
B: I loved this conversation. And, yes, I really want to help.
I: That's a really good point. Definitely, it's very present in those rhythms. It's not quantized perfectly. It's very nonlinear.
B: You need the imperfections a little bit of, the timing is slightly off. It's some swung this way or swung that way or pitched up or pitched down.
Okay, great. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. There's lots of music that I feel as if we've lived through together, particularly musically. There's loads of stuff that you're thinking about that's totally new to me. I'm just like, "it's absolutely amazing hearing about it."
I: Thank you so much for making the time. I've always appreciated your words. I remember being in high school, reading your blog. I feel like it's really fitting that you're writing the biography for the album.
B: I loved this conversation. And, yes, I really want to help.
Apart from all the other reasons, just the fact that you love this early "roots of…" sound that, frankly, is what I originally fell in love with and are doing so much to bring it to new audiences is just like, "yes! go for it! Just kill it, please." If I can help in any small way, that's great.
I: Perfect. Sounds good.
B: Cool. Have a good Sunday.
I: All right, you too.
I: Perfect. Sounds good.
B: Cool. Have a good Sunday.
I: All right, you too.
- Enjoyed this read? Listen "Moving the Center"
- Listen to Introspekt b2b Dusk + Blackdown b2b Kellen303 on the Lot Radio May '25
- More of Blackdown's recent writing? Check Kevin Saunderson and Sully interviews over at RA.
- Hear more? 20 years of Keysound this year: check the label's Bandcamp for releases.
